tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post6288871844116629060..comments2024-03-05T06:32:37.180-05:00Comments on The Daly Planet: The NASCAR On Fox Gang Walks Away QuietlyDaly Planet Editorhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/13834588435004023666noreply@blogger.comBlogger81125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-88836343388735457112008-06-04T09:43:00.000-04:002008-06-04T09:43:00.000-04:00Thanks to everyone for the great comments over the...Thanks to everyone for the great comments over the last several days. They have been read by the folks in the business who control and affect the NASCAR TV coverage.<BR/><BR/>Being able to let them read the well written and thoughtful comments that you offered was the goal of this project from the beginning. <BR/><BR/>Thanks again for taking the time to leave us your opinion.<BR/><BR/>JDDaly Planet Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834588435004023666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-16200564414402323302008-06-04T01:16:00.000-04:002008-06-04T01:16:00.000-04:00Fox Guy,Thanks for what you do and in particular, ...Fox Guy,<BR/><BR/>Thanks for what you do and in particular, writing when you can.<BR/><BR/>Unlike many others, I don't have major beefs with your racecast. There are some things I would do differently, but since I didn't make full use of my BA in Radio-TV, I'm on the other side of the screen.<BR/><BR/>There are a few things on my mind, though. I'm wondering if there is some conclusive audience research that shows most of the viewers are only casual fans with no strong affiliation to any one driver? I have to think the checkered flag/winner crosses the Start/Finish line/winning driver's wife crying or pit crew or crew chief exulting sequence didn't just spring up out of nowhere like mushrooms the day after a rain. Even if the audience research doesn't exist, the sequence does serve to tell the story. Ten years ago when I wasn't even interested enough to be classified as a "casual fan," I didn't care who the other cars were. I just cared to see who won..<BR/><BR/>I could do without so many product placements ("get your own 'Digger' at DWStore.com"), but I realize without them and the many commercials, I would be looking at 30 year-old "M*A*S*H" reruns on my local Fox affiliate on Sunday afternoons when football is not in season. (I also might be one of the few here who understands that I'm not the center of the universe, so not everything should please me.)<BR/><BR/>Even though I find DW's shtick tiresome, I also think the folksiness in him is a tie to the grassroots of NASCAR. When he's not slobbering over Kyle Busch like a smitten teenager, he does manage to give some good information in a terse sentence or two.<BR/><BR/>I too would like to see more emphasis on the rest of the field, but since I'm a Junior fan, I get what I want from your racecast and my DirecTV Hot Pass.<BR/><BR/>If I were to give one suggestion that would be taken seriously, I echo others: please more wide shots and more coverage of position battles back in the field. Not only does it show more cars (satisfying fans of the other cars), but it also shows more cars. By this I mean that it gives more of a sensation that we are watching a competition. Isos of a leading car or a popular driver back in the pack do not engender a feeling that this is actually a race.<BR/><BR/>Thanks for listening. Even if nothing changes, I'm still grateful. By putting together and telecasting the races, you save me the aggravation of the cost, traffic, cacophony, heat, second-hand smoke, drunks, and general discomfort I feel when I'm forced to spend hours in close quarters with people not of my choice. A big thank you to you, your peers, and the powers that be.<BR/><BR/>Kenny<BR/>Alameda, California<BR/><BR/>(A California fan who does support NASCAR. I subscibe to DirecTV Hot Pass, NASCAR Scene, and NASCAR Illustrated. That's two Benjies right there.)Kenn Fonghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00381315903467639353noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-1326725344761522042008-06-03T23:59:00.000-04:002008-06-03T23:59:00.000-04:00glenng,Jayski always has the start times on the ra...glenng,<BR/><BR/>Jayski always has the start times on the race info page. I usually DVR that separately so don't tie myself to the tube, FF through it. DVR Raceday on Speed, also, and FF through that, frankly, after reading the review on this blog for the highlights.Karenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03138762423112575914noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-45906158232448924262008-06-03T21:06:00.000-04:002008-06-03T21:06:00.000-04:00glenng I agree with you regardng the exact time of...glenng I agree with you regardng the exact time of the green flag...the two places I look when I want to find that time is on the indvidual track websites as well as on Jayski.com....many times the individual track sites have the schedule of events for the weekend listed somewhere on the site and jayski has a next race info page that usually gives a pretty accurate start time.Haus14https://www.blogger.com/profile/06348382223779617438noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-7882062329909521502008-06-03T19:05:00.000-04:002008-06-03T19:05:00.000-04:00lisa hogan, the chris myers comment was funny and ...lisa hogan, the chris myers comment was funny and made for a good laugh. Thanks!<BR/><BR/> When myers slams Dr. Dick, which is every week, I'd like to reach into my set and smack him in in the back of the head. Dick takes it well so maybe that is why myers does it so often.<BR/><BR/> Bucky b, maybe you can tell us where we can find the exact start of these races. All it says on my guide is for example 1:30 to 6:00 pm. Therefore I tune in at 1:30. If you have a source that tells you the race really doesn't start till 2:52 pm, I think people would give you a big pat on the back for the info. <BR/><BR/>Untill then, we as loyal fans are subjected to What? You guessed it 1 and 1/2 hours of pre race.<BR/><BR/> The other shows on sunday morning don't matter much. I eat second breakfest and take a nap while they are on.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-33062610552273623882008-06-03T18:52:00.000-04:002008-06-03T18:52:00.000-04:00buckyb,That is exactly the point. You should want ...buckyb,<BR/><BR/>That is exactly the point. You should want to watch the pre-race shows and there should be a reason why. Compelling programming and interactive features should allow anyone who wanted more info to get it during this time.<BR/><BR/>The bottom line is, the Internet is kicking butt on the current NASCAR TV pre-race programming. The unstructured TV mess has each individual network's agenda put first and the sport put second.<BR/><BR/>A little group organization by the powers that be would go a long way toward making watching the pre-race programming a pleasure and not a chore.<BR/><BR/>JDDaly Planet Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834588435004023666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-1740206822568937652008-06-03T17:06:00.000-04:002008-06-03T17:06:00.000-04:00You know JD the comment about not watching the pre...You know JD the comment about not watching the pre-shows instead of complaining has a ring of sense to it. I dont' have to watch. I could just tune in at race time, whenver that is and watch the race. I guess my issue is more about information over load. I hate to keep living in the past but I do remember great shows like Motorweek Illustrated and the original This Week in Winston Cup on TNN. For a long time that was all we had, now you get all the info you could possibly need but it's all a rehash of the same thing. Honestly the best thing I saw on Sunday was the interview on Speed on Raceday with David Coulthard. It had nothing to do with NASCAR per se but it was just different and the intercation with Kenny and Jimmy.<BR/><BR/>The NFL has endless hours of pre-game shows on Sundays during their season so I guess it's no different.<BR/><BR/>My biggest issue is still the race presentation. There is so much more going on in stead of the race and way too many voices and personalities vying for air time and not enough useful race informaton being disseminated.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-9620112927033512072008-06-03T14:54:00.000-04:002008-06-03T14:54:00.000-04:00Just my opinion:I enjoy the Fox booth more than th...Just my opinion:<BR/>I enjoy the Fox booth more than the other networks covering Cup during the season. Larry Mac, Jeff and DW are all past champions and that carries weight with me.<BR/><BR/>My aggravations are about some of the camera decisions. There are too many “special” cameras used during the race. A few of these would be fine. Too many, however, add nothing to the understanding or enjoyment of what is happening on the track. Like others have posted, I would also like to see the cars cross the finish line.<BR/><BR/>Each season, DW seems to have one thing that he just goes on and on about. I can usually shrug this off as just being DW. This season having two things, digger and Kyle, it was just too much.<BR/><BR/>As I’ve posted before, I’m sure that Chris Myers is a nice guy, works hard, and doesn’t kick his dog. I just do not like his act. We have all noticed that DW and Mikey have to touch whoever is next to them while talking. Chris Myers carries this a whole lot farther. He cannot seem to keep his hands off of Jeff Hammond.<BR/><BR/>I would suggest, that during their off time, the person in the truck who has a crush on Carl’s Mom and Chris Myers get some therapy for their problems. :)Lisa Hoganhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15816899271672467136noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-63434816852152554132008-06-03T13:18:00.000-04:002008-06-03T13:18:00.000-04:00Anon 12:59P,Good point. Let me talk about it.There...Anon 12:59P,<BR/><BR/>Good point. Let me talk about it.<BR/><BR/>There are several types of shows that originate on Sunday from the different NASCAR TV partners.<BR/><BR/>Unfortunately, all of them are aimed at exactly the same target and for one good reason. There is no one coordinating the activity between the TV networks where pre-race programming is involved.<BR/><BR/>Last year, we had Wendy Venturini on here talking about standing next to Jamie Little and taking turns interviewing the same driver about the same things for two different live networks. What is the point?<BR/><BR/>Think about it. There is no long-form review program on Sunday mornings. No "Beyond the Wheel" or any other finished show. There is nothing interactive with the viewers other than some random email. <BR/><BR/>Essentially, ESPN2 and SPEED and TNT will all be presenting the same content filtered through their own annoucers and then their own TV network pathways to your home. What a waste.<BR/><BR/>As many veteran fans have said in this forum, there are so many stories that go uncovered with this uncoordinated approach to the sport.<BR/><BR/>If NASCAR "helped" the TV partners to coordinate their activities, fans would see a new reality that would allow the sport to stop focusing on the same five stories or so for all of the pre-race shows.<BR/><BR/>TNT's first race this weekend is going to be the first time the marathon unfolds. Unfortunately, there is no way that this appoach is going to help the networks involved.<BR/><BR/>JDDaly Planet Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834588435004023666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-45364855723570368662008-06-03T12:59:00.000-04:002008-06-03T12:59:00.000-04:00Im confused here. We want more NASCAR oriented pro...Im confused here. We want more NASCAR oriented programs and networks to devote more time to NASCAR, but we don't want more pre-race shows?<BR/><BR/>JD you keep pointing out the 4+ hours of pre-race. It is spread out through three different networks. In my opinion a pre-race show is only the one shown on the network before the race. <BR/><BR/>Maybe I misread your comments. But when you say 4+ hours of pre-race you make it sound like we ARE FORCED to watch the shows on ESPN, SPEED, and TNT. <BR/><BR/>The networks have every right to produce their own morning NASCAR program. I think its great because we can choose which show we want to watch. But people are making it seem like we HAVE to watch all the shows.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-59653086001998497782008-06-03T12:29:00.000-04:002008-06-03T12:29:00.000-04:00No more BOOGITY, BOOGITY, BOOGITY. Thank you.No more BOOGITY, BOOGITY, BOOGITY. Thank you.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-14146636128775066692008-06-03T11:44:00.000-04:002008-06-03T11:44:00.000-04:00Guys,I think what people are discussing is the con...Guys,<BR/><BR/>I think what people are discussing is the content and the lack of coordination between pre-race shows.<BR/><BR/>Certainly, every TV network has the right to originate the programming they desire. What we have been discussing is "how much is too much?"<BR/><BR/>For Pocono: One hour of NASCAR Now in the morning on ESPN2, two hours of RaceDay on SPEED and then one and a half hours of TNT pre-race shows. Four and a half hours of live programming before the race starts. That is a point of discussion.<BR/><BR/>We all understand the easy way out is to say just don't watch it, but we have tried to offer opinions on the content and style of these shows since Feb of 2007.<BR/><BR/>This coming week should be the best example ever of possible NASCAR pre-race overload, especially after another Friday and Saturday of live coverage on SPEED of practices and qualifying.<BR/><BR/>JDDaly Planet Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834588435004023666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-38406784231776142352008-06-03T11:23:00.000-04:002008-06-03T11:23:00.000-04:00Anon 10:47, my sentiments exactly. If the race co...Anon 10:47, my sentiments exactly. If the race comes on at 1:00 don't tune in until 1:30 or 1:45. If you don't like who is speaking, mute it. I'm sure these shows bring in big money and put drivers in front of the cameras. Some talk about the good old days, well those good old days didn't bring in the big advertising dollars like today nor did the drivers make a fraction of what todays drivers make. Also instead of a car owner employing 300 to 400+ people they were lucky to have a very small % of those numbers and the number of jobs it takes to bring us the race each week is huge. It's those advertising dollars that bring the race and the events surrounding it into your homes each week. Folks, it is what it is. Your choice is to watch or not watch, it's that simple.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-11892215563270048462008-06-03T10:47:00.000-04:002008-06-03T10:47:00.000-04:00I'm surprised there's so much complaining about th...I'm surprised there's so much complaining about the length of the pre-race show.<BR/><BR/>If you don't like it, don't watch it. No one makes you it through it. <BR/><BR/>Just watch the race.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-46262140300329137642008-06-03T10:02:00.000-04:002008-06-03T10:02:00.000-04:00Hey, I'm a California race fan and there are a lot...<B>Hey, I'm a California race fan and there are a lot of us out here. A lot.</B><BR/><BR/>Then go to the races they took from other cities and gave to California. Right now, we see lots--thousands--of empty seats when we watch the races there.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-53411807693511143112008-06-03T09:43:00.000-04:002008-06-03T09:43:00.000-04:00I have to admit I'm very happy to read so many com...I have to admit I'm very happy to read so many comments that echo the sentiment that I've had for a long time about this sport and the way it is being presented. I've never been one to believe that a fan needs to establish their bona fide's before giving an opinion but just for perspective purposes I will say that I was born and raised in South Florida and have attended every Daytona 500 since 1976. I remember as a youngster in the mid '70's reading my dad's National Speed Sport News to get all of our racing news and being excited on those rare occasions when a race would be broadcast, sometimes a week delayed, on ABC's Wide World of Sports or CBS Sports Spectacular. Sometimes wedged in between weight lifting and gymnastics. If you are too young to remember those shows I won't go into the formats, I'll let JD weigh in if he chooses. We didn't get "live, flag to flag coverage". I got print media and not the local paper by the way and radio. I still listen to MRN and am still amazed that after all these years the same format still works so well.<BR/><BR/>Which brings me to my point. Call me old school or old fart, whatever but I believe that less is more. ESPN brought motorsports into my living room in the early '80's and sometimes TBS every Sunday. No more waiting a week and seeing it all chopped up during a three hour broadcast window. Bob Jenkins and the late Larry Nuber called the action. No hype, no fluff, just two broadcasters calling the race with some "expert" commentary from pit lane. It was great and remained so for a very long time. Others were added to the booth, namely Ned Jarrett and later Benny Parsons. But the premise remained. The went live at noon or 12:30 recapped the weekend, gave you the starting line up and away we went. I started seeing the faces of some of those MRN voices that I grew up with, Jerry Punch, Jack Arute, Gary Gerould. Over at CBS which started doing about six or eight live races a year I got to see Dave Despain and Mike Joy along with legendary Chris Economaki, Ken Squire and Brock Yates. TNN later got into the mix with the ever steady Eli Gold. Along with Buddy Baker and Neil Bonnett formed the best booth yet but that's my opinion.<BR/><BR/>Now we have endless hours of programming. From practice to qualifying to to about 4 hours of pre-race hype on two networks. We have almost a dozen voices trying to present the same race. The same races where only about four people presented. JD you had a column last year where you talked about the Milwaukee Nationwide race. Allen Bestwick and Randy LaJoie presenting the pre-race from the roof of the press box and then calling the race. Just like Bob Jenkins and Larry Nuber used to do. No hype, no fluff, no self promotion or over the top, in your face production.<BR/><BR/>I'm not a very big fan of DW. I didn't like him when he drove and I certainly don't care for his style of "broadcasting". I don't care for the Jerry Glanville/Terry Bradshaw type presentation. It sets southerners back 100 years. Between the three networks there's some good ones and there's some bad ones. No use getting into it, we all have our opinions, likes and dislikes. The graphics, the camera shots and you could fill volumes with the lack of information that is not presented during the broadcast. It goes on and on.<BR/><BR/>Someone needs to take these crews and lock them in a room and show them how races were once presented. I still find it done somewhat the old fashioned way on the Indy Car telecasts. Not to mention the broadcast of F1 on Speed. Somehow without the benefit of all those bells and whistles, three men sitting in a booth watching television of a broadcast from over seas put on one hell of a show. That show is motorspots. It is just racing. It's really not complicated.<BR/><BR/>Sometimes, less truly is more.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-33200915177786453002008-06-03T08:46:00.000-04:002008-06-03T08:46:00.000-04:00"Fox's problem is that sometimes (OK, most of the ..."Fox's problem is that sometimes (OK, most of the time) THEY are the star(s) of the show, not the race. The race is supposed to be the focus-not the announcers,the cameras, the websites, the network itself. Usually there was way too much focus on outside items."<BR/><BR/>Matt, I couldn't have said it better. That's the main difference I see watching early coverage vs. later coverage. The fact that where they sell stuff is called 'DWStore.com' ought to be our first clue. I have nothing against people making a buck, but they need to stop shoving down our throats. <BR/><BR/>You know, I know what glenng is saying about the Sunoco thing, but honestly, I think I don't even 'hear' it anymore; I just tune it out.<BR/><BR/>Lastly...I agree with Ken-Michigan about the anthem (I think you meant it to be #10), but I think we are in the vast minority. Most of the time I'm doing other stuff when it's on, but I think of it as there for the fans AT the race, not the TV viewers. When I'm there in person, then I enjoy it, though I'd admit there have been some this year I thought were quite good. You just get tired of 'insert name here' Nashville recording artist or 'local singing sensation' & I could usually do without. It has nothing to do with patriotism, which is what's inside you, it's about an overly long TV program. I'm out there with you Ken, but I don't think it's gonna fly, lol.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-7901216907018028932008-06-03T00:03:00.000-04:002008-06-03T00:03:00.000-04:00JD - Being a first time visitor to this site in 2...JD -<BR/><BR/> Being a first time visitor to this site in 2008, I have really enjoyed being able to add my 2 cents.... so THANKS JD !!<BR/><BR/> I've complimented and I've been critical at times, but I think that I might have watched this first half of the season on FOX and ESPN alot more closely, knowing that we discuss it on here.<BR/><BR/> Anything that I have posted on here is the same exact thing that I say here on the couch while watching with other friends and TV / Boradcasting people.<BR/><BR/>Here's a few things that caught my attention..... on FOX.<BR/><BR/>1) Mike Joy is still one of the very best, I really respect his work and his way to talk to the audience thru complicated issues.<BR/><BR/>2) I still don't know why or how FOX let DW on the air at Bristol when he could barely talk. We came to understand it was DW's "decision" to work that broadcast, when in my mind....it shouldn't have been left up to DW.<BR/><BR/>3) Larry Mac must have dreams about being a play by play guy. He needs to button it up and be the analyst. Please, let Mike Joy do the play by play. <BR/><BR/>4) Larry Mac, Hammond and DW for that matter, got a new lease on life when FOX started covering the races. All of their careers were done, and now they are all under the impression that we are watching because THEY are on TV. Guys, check your egos at the gate each week and we find you all more enjoyable.<BR/><BR/>5) Gopher cam.... the shot is useable... just delete the gopher animation.<BR/><BR/>6) Lazy Producing.... so many stories went uncovered. Cars on the track for a race and we never see them ALL DAY. Drivers who SHOULD have been interviewed after the race, are not heard from. You're there to cover an event.....cover it. <BR/><BR/>7) Split screens should be utilized alot more often. <BR/><BR/>8) I don't like making the driver wait in the winner's circle for TV to get back from a 3 or 4 minute commercial break. Takes away from the raw emotion of winning a 3 or 4 hour event.<BR/><BR/>9) Add me to the list of people who no longer watch ANY pre-race stuff. I guess it might make sense to the fan who ONLY tunes in on Sunday, but personally, I dont need all the pre-race.<BR/><BR/>9) Finally,....I'm really going to go out on a limb on this comment, but lets see if it flies....might sound crazy....but, i wanna know what others think....<BR/><BR/> As much as I love my country, for TV's sake, should the TV networks cover the national anthem and the invocation ?? Other TV sports do it on "certain" occasions, but not each and every telecast. <BR/><BR/> Overall, in my mind FOX has gotten into a rut of settling for mediocrity. We, as fans, have no other choice. They pay the TV rights and I gather that NASCAR allows them to cover the event how ever they want. That is a shame.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-82571430648501122082008-06-02T23:58:00.000-04:002008-06-02T23:58:00.000-04:00Fox's problem is that sometimes (OK, most of the t...Fox's problem is that sometimes (OK, most of the time) THEY are the star(s) of the show, not the race. The race is supposed to be the focus-not the announcers,the cameras, the websites, the network itself. Usually there was way too much focus on outside items. I realize during the boring parts, it could be a good idea. But most of the time, especially restarts, the race has to be the focus. That's FOX's biggest flaw. So much action was missed this year because of Fox's obssession with Digger and their speedshots. If Fox refocuses on showing the racing itself, their coverage will be pretty darn good.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-62828524602456022102008-06-02T22:51:00.000-04:002008-06-02T22:51:00.000-04:00Hey, I'm a California race fan and there are a lot...Hey, I'm a California race fan and there are a lot of us out here. A lot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-87898136446037363722008-06-02T22:35:00.000-04:002008-06-02T22:35:00.000-04:00I KNOW THAT DW and Jeff are just like when they w...I KNOW THAT DW and Jeff are just like when they were the best in racing,they are the BEST.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-81570610772880773052008-06-02T20:39:00.000-04:002008-06-02T20:39:00.000-04:00Glenng,I also feel your pain. When I visualize wh...Glenng,<BR/><BR/>I also feel your pain. When I visualize what the snake oil salesmen from the old wild west days must have been like, I visualize the Waltrips. Scary and sad at the same time......Vincehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15530553847645526841noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-13558778079958044142008-06-02T20:35:00.000-04:002008-06-02T20:35:00.000-04:00glenn,See, I knew you had it in ya!JDglenn,<BR/><BR/>See, I knew you had it in ya!<BR/><BR/>JDDaly Planet Editorhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13834588435004023666noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-8971093181169733622008-06-02T20:20:00.000-04:002008-06-02T20:20:00.000-04:00glenng: not only buddy baker but gentleman jed and...glenng: not only buddy baker but gentleman jed and bud lindeman and the rest. that's when the racers really respected the sport and the fans. and that's the past i mourn: the respect. <BR/>drivers, broadcasters, journalists, fans -- many seem to have sunk to the lowest common denominator. sigh.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2080132098367510832.post-36718601204654987692008-06-02T20:17:00.000-04:002008-06-02T20:17:00.000-04:00GlengI feel your pain and frustration.Gleng<BR/>I feel your pain and frustration.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com