Ponch and John had something in common while patrolling the highways of California. They both looked good. In Hollywood, that certainly counts for a lot. On the racetrack, it's all about performance.
A drizzle made for dreary weather at the Auto Club Speedway. The Hollywood Hotel was the home for Chris Myers, Darrell Waltrip and Jeff Hammond. The pre-race show was a mix of topics that somehow always try to tie-in to Hollywood.
Mike Joy, Darrell Waltrip and Larry McReynolds called the race. The pit reporters were Steve Byrnes, Krista Voda, Matt Yocum and Dick Berggren.
The wide racetrack made for lots of green flag racing and limited passing once the field was stretched out. Denny Hamlin went out of the race after an engine problem and was interviewed quickly.
FOX made good pictures and had no technical problems. The telecast started in typical FOX style with tight shots and in-car cameras as the primary video. With about 60 laps to go, wideshots began to be used to show the intervals between cars.
The network was in commercial for the first round of green flag pitstops. This was surprising given that radio traffic indicated when the teams would begin to pit. The pit reporters were good with information and often provided a news item when the telecast slowed down.
FOX seemed confused in terms of what to cover on the track and often followed cars in the lead without providing a field recap of moving back to tell the stories of other teams. Eventually, Waltrip and McReynolds kind of ran out of things to say about the same few cars being covered.
The way that radio solves the problem of a boring race is by going back and telling the stories of the teams that are struggling or coming back from adversity. FOX has a problem doing that in any kind of coordinated manner. It is just not a part of the telecasts and has never been.
A restart with less than 10 laps to go jump-started the telecast and allowed it to end with some actual racing. Joy brought the race home and it was thankfully done.
Update: I am being flooded with email about fans not seeing their driver finish the race. FOX has consistently shown only the winner cross the finish line this season. Feel free to leave a comment referencing that topic below, but it does not appear that this is going to change.
This post serves to host your post-race wrap-up comments on the FOX telecast. To add your TV-related comments, just click on the comments button below. This is a family-friendly website, please keep that in mind when posting. Thank you for taking the time to stop by The Daly Planet.
What a waste of an afternoon. If we could have a signal for 10 laps to go, we could save a bunch of time. We didn't see a race and only heard babble from the booth. They don't show the race or talk about and then when it finishes, they don't even show it.
ReplyDeleteHorrible telecast.
Luckily I did not watch until very late in the race. The Hollywood references are just too much.
ReplyDeleteMr Editor -
ReplyDeleteI heard there was a race today at Fontana ...guess I missed it ...ugh, what a downer - Carl praising the folks in the stands ...N-O-T!
Walter
That was an incredibly boring race with awful coverage, but an AWESOME FINISH!
ReplyDeleteI think it's telling that half the commentary - and enthusiastic commentary at that - had nothing to do with the race.
ReplyDeletePointless broadcast. Hope Fox at least got paid for it; even the ads did little more than make me want to run screaming into the woods.
Do appreciate this site, and it'll be a wonderful day when coverage is awesome and we can nitpick rather than curse for a couple hours.
We got home from St Pete - Indy race in time to see last 15 laps... Only 1 car made it to the finish? I'll watch the DVR later then comment on the coverage. Sounds like same old...
ReplyDeleteFIRE ARTIE. That's all that needs to be said after the way the last lap was shot.
ReplyDelete@Roland said:
ReplyDelete"That was an incredibly boring race with awful coverage, but an AWESOME FINISH!"
I subscribe in part and dissent in part. I say:
This was a good race with awful coverage, but a AWESOME FINISH!
I think we would see a lot of changes if all of the producers and directors were locked in a room and forced to watch the race exactly as it was presented to us.
ReplyDeleteWhy is it so fricken difficult to show the end of the race??? How frustrating!
ReplyDeleteJust when I thought the coverage couldn't get any worse. Doing the taxes today was more fun than what was on the TV. I have no words for how bad the coverage is. At least none I'm going to use on a family friendly blog.
ReplyDeleteOn a good note, congratulations to Kevin! Thank you for beating JJ.
Well from what i hear nothing has changed.
ReplyDeleteIf Fox does not fire that kushner guy ten we will never come back.
It is amazing how telecasts have changed.
Changed for the worse as a matter of fact.
Lather, rinse, repeat.
Nothing has changed and i don't believe ever will.
I'm confused at the comment in the blog that the race may have been boring (The way that radio solves the problem of a boring race...). The blog owner previously stated that
ReplyDelete"When NASCAR drivers are racing at speed, the race is never boring."
I think Junior got 11th because I saw it on his Hotpass Channel.
ReplyDeleteI watched very little of the race (on purpose I'll admit). I switched back and forth and found commercials, long "coming back from commercial" segments and the few times there were cars on the track when I switched, well, they were single car shots.
ReplyDeleteCame back one time to an aerial shot that was SOOOO far away it was useless to show us anything, so was effectively another commercial.
The final 10 laps were actually worth watching and i did watch them uninterrupted.
at the end of the race, DW actually had the nerve to say that the whole race had been like that. Really? Considering that twitter comments stated exactly the opposite, he's either deluding himself or lying to the fans.
I'm glad I have trackpass.
@Anon 6:19
ReplyDeleteThere's always racing all over the track, but those at home rarely get to see it.
@saltsburgtrojanfan
ReplyDelete"Hope is a good thing; perhaps the best thing."
--and--
"...its this: either you get busy livin' or you get busy dyin'..."
(Stephen King: "Betty Grable and the Shawshank Redemption")
I prefer hope. Jus' sayin' :)
It was boring to me anyways. All they did all day was show the 18 running by himself. Long green runs all day. It was pretty boring. Races get boring sometimes.
ReplyDeleteAnon 6:19PM,
ReplyDeleteThat has been true for over 50 years. The issue for the "blog owner" has been that fans have no other video source from the track.
If FOX chooses to simply follow the leader or show 15 laps of Kyle Busch's in-car there is only radio to tell fans what is truly going on.
TV loves to control. The tug of war here is between stepping back and working hard to show fans what is going on or trying to decide what to show and controlling the content sent out on TV.
That is why we see fans upset these days. Twitter, Facebook and other instant social media has allowed them to find out what is really going on and that it often does not match what they are seeing on TV.
It's a classic case of sports fans getting more info and gaining awareness of just how much is being excluded by the TV coverage.
JD
Between ESPN and Fox, I wouldn't really care about watching the races. It's getting to the point that the only way I can (barely) tolerate the broadcasts is as a background to this board and one particular forum. I won't mention the forum by name, but I can describe it as something awful.
ReplyDeleteIf it weren't for that, I would probably even be convinced to go outside and do something constructive with my time...
I can't really comment because I've given up on Fox broadcasts of the races and we went to a stage play instead. We got home in time to see the last 25 laps...muted, of course. I followed the race on twitter and this blog.
ReplyDeleteI thought the actual racing at the very end was very good.I'm not a Harvick fan,but it was a clean win. Kyle gets a lot of heat for not handling losing with a lot of grace, but he smiled for an interview where Tony Stewart just stormed by the pit reporters. I agree, the camera coverage after Harvick crossed the line was just jeuvenile. No excuse for such a stupid act. Chris Myers should be yanked from the booth. I was disappointed they couldn't squeeze in more post race interviews. Good race in spite of Fox.
ReplyDeleteWell here is the thing
ReplyDeletesome people keep watching and because of that little is changing. TDP's efforts are great but Fox does not care. They only care about money and power. We'll we have the power but some people decide to give them every chance possible. Well i don't give every chance possible to people unwilling to change.
JD keep up on all the dirty little secrets of Fox there must be more you have not told us.
I'm all ears!!!!!
Today' we Chose F1 & Indycar. Just came in & saw race over, watched last 10 laps after hearing who won.
ReplyDeleteI purposely DID NOT WATCH cause it was cold but sunny day & FOx just makes me SICK w horrid camera choices.
Thus, I don't watch. Great pass by Kevin on the last lap :)
Camera work STANK for the end.
FOX, go back & watch the Indycar race. Cars all strung out & we still saw many cars cross.
DFR does not work for Indycar & I hope they get rid of that rule. They do not want to be like NASCAR.
If you have Versus Channel, give Indycar some love. They deserve it & NASCAR does not.
Stop the insanity & give up the abusive FoxWeDon'tCareWHatYouFansAtHomeWantToSee
It's a sad day that I no longer plan my weekend around NASCAR, :-(
I have most of the same complaints about FOX. Too many special cams, not calling the race, one car finishes.
ReplyDeleteBut I don't understand why you people continue to support them by watching. Then bitching about being forced to watch. I didn't like it so I now follow the races on the radio. End of problem. I have a TV (though no cable) that I can tune in if I really need to see something. Sports highlight shows will cover most of the necessary visuals.
Listen on the radio, then compare it to TV and decide what you like better. You have TV, radio or nothing. Pick one and deal with it. If ratings go down because you've all tuned to the radio then you can bet changes will be made.
i see how it is john daly, i make positive comments about the race and they get deleted, real cool, i see how it is, all negative, no positive
ReplyDelete@Don
ReplyDeleteI am supposed to be cooking. She Who Must Be Obeyed expects me to do so for some reason....
I watch because I am a Stock Car Automobile Racing fan and have been since 1958.
I remember when there was no coverage at all -- or not much at all -- or both.
Others may have reasons of their own, but that is mine.
Simply put: I love the sport. I only wish those producing, directing, and photographing it loved as much as I.
Anon 6:46PM,
ReplyDeleteThat's not how it is at all and you know it.
All we want is your comments, not your suggestions on how others should feel or what they should say.
Been that way since 2007. Focus and type.
Anon 6:36... I watch the race because I am a stock Car racing fan!
ReplyDeleteI don't need to be able to do a better job than Fox in order to criticize their AWFUL coverage because it is not my responsibility to broadcast the races, it's Fox's job.
Fox does not even attempt to show the viewer a coherent or organized presentation of the race. It basically amounts to disorganized babbling about one car on camera going around the track.
Calling them booth monkey's is an INSULT to booth monkey's!
Fire the producer too! It's pitiful what is being done to this sport on television.
To any new fan: If you can not go to see the race live, just tune in your radio to MRN and listen to the race. I am sorry but that is the only way to get a full presentation of the days events on the track!
It's official! Fox's presentation in nothing more than an infomercial meets a video game video with a babbling monologue and ONE CAR FINISHING THE RACE!
Fox = Incoherent Coverage
@Anon 6:41
ReplyDeleteThere's watching a broadcast by being absolutely enthralled and enchanted by well-thought-out camerawork, and by intelligent, enlightening and informative commentary.
Then there's watching a broadcast by having it serve as a source of frustration by constant quick MTV-style cuts, single-car shots, obsessive focus on a couple of favorites, non-stop inconsequential jib-jab, self-promotion to the point of obnoxiousness, blatant hucksterism, and generally insulting their established fan base by treating them as if we were deaf, dumb and blind, and they've come to lead us out of the wilderness.
My synopsis - a hastily put-together middle-school play has more professionalism and higher production values than what we were just forced to endure.
Oh, by the way - you spelled "y'all" wrong...
Why are people surprised they only show the winner? Most of the time they just show the leaders anyways.
ReplyDeleteGreat finish. Good down the stretch Mike Joy. DW just needs to go away. At the end he was pretty much making wrong call after wrong call.
Which of course means they are going to fire Mike Joy and just use the leaders in car camera crossing the stripe.
I apologize for being redundant to my earlier post,but it's been knawing at me since the checkered flag dropped. With all their experience, how could Fox take an exciting finish and dumb it down into a bunch of stupid booth comments interspaced with interviews? They could have captured the excitement of that finish with a series of rapid fire pit road interviews even if they had to replay Harvick in Victory Lane. They completely lost the excitement of it all.
ReplyDeleteAncient Racer -
ReplyDeleteOnly a fan since 1968. Extremely difficult to be one when you grow up in the Northeast and have no coverage at all except Autoweek and Wide World Of Sports.
I cannot give up the sport either but I refuse to be frustrated by Fox. So I go old school. Radio announcers call the race, have fewer commercial and don't tell irrelevant stories about when they used to race.
Later in the year I'll be frustrated by the lack of coverage on network TV while golf and baseball (both supposedly lower in fans than racing) get covered by major and minor broadcast networks. Racing on TV is not good now. Racing on TV has almost never been good. When it was good, I probably was giving them too much credit because I was so grateful after all those years of partial coverage by Jim McKay between rounds of figure skating. I have more complaints with the sport than with the coverage.
I'm watching some old races from Mizlou.
ReplyDeleteThey kept it simple. Showed the best racing on the track and not just the leader. Showed the crashes, names or no names. And more importantly THEY SHOWED TH RACE.
Mizlou did a better job in all of their telecasts than fox did since 2007 to this year.
How many of you planeteers all remembered Mizlou? Did you think they did a good job on telecasts?
Ah the good old days.
Glad I didn't waste an afternoon here in Tampa watching this so called coverage at the end made me crazy. Only showed Harvick cross finish, guess he was the only car on lead lap like back in the good old days...
ReplyDeleteI was going to watch DVr then saw the first commercial came in at lap 8. At lap 38 the DW retro back in the day love fest caused me to erase the rest of it.
Same old same old - I've been a fan for 40+ years now and this is awful. Actually makes me yearn for Wide World of Sports.
No more planning around Faux/NASCAR, maybe we will when TNT returns. If I see it I see it on radio.
Thanks JD for this spot on the net.
Not going to get this post off track. Leave us a comment on the race coverage by FOX today from Cali.
ReplyDeleteGot a problem, issue or question? Just email me directly at editor@thedalyplanet.tv and we will take care of it immediately.
Thanks again for sticking with us, I know it was a tough day.
Mizlou was good (hard to get in the Land of Granola, though), as well as ESPN and Speed. Pre-2001. Pre- ESPN and Fox's heavy-handed approach. Pre-BZF and his misguided quest for relevance. Pre-... forget it.
ReplyDeleteTo be honest, I don't see it ever really changing for the better. There may be improvements here and there, but the overall product seems to be regressing down to the same lowest-common-denominator level as Dancing With the Stars and American Idol.
BTW: Captcha is "blohard"? Thanx, JD...
JD, I'll take you up on that.
ReplyDeleteProblem: Pirating more interesting stuff is dangerous, and a pretty girl got me into this infernal sport, and I'm too busy either going "what?!" or trying to drink frustration away to even keep track.
I don't watch racing to look at a scorin' ticker, I want to see the cars.
ESPN has vastly cleaned up their act there. Hope they continue.
Issue - we all howl here, and elsewhere, and any reasonable journalist with cojones does too...this is, far as tv stuff goes, probably about the bottom of the barrel.
The reality show/too fast too see/don't gotta think about it rationale works great for primetime on ABC, etc (no offense, y'all) - stinks for sports.
Bread and circuses it may be, but we ain't eating, and it's a bad circus.
Question: After profound attention, drinking, participation, discussion...the only conclusion I have so far is that Fox as a network, in its entirety, is catered to the abject lowest denominator.
With that said, can't something that doesn't require artificial excitement, angles, graphics, etc, etc ever again regain the simple excitement for fans of taking a corner fast, hoping Mr. #28th place makes it up 10 places, etc, without having to look at a NASDAQ style ticker to see it?
Motorsports journalism that isn't buoyed by the rest of the planet, like F1 or the Rolex Series...is it dead here? Has America quit, aside from obsessed nutjobs like me?
More incisively, will it have a future if it's annoying people as young as I am?
I hope my comment didn't enable moderation. If so, I apologize.
ReplyDeleteI basically said I was shocked DW was able to stay on the air after quoting Tony Stewart with a very crude reference when talking about passing drivers on the outside at the track.
I could not believe FOX allowed him to stay on the air today, although I acknowledge he is the face of NASCAR on FOX and he just renewed his contract.
I don't think the quote technically violated any FCC rules, so maybe they decided to just let it go.
Anyway, I would expect FOX to address it in a press release tonight or tomorrow.
The shock of the quote affected my enjoyment of the rest of the race - so I think mentioning the quote is relevant to the television coverage, because I am sure I am not the only one.
I don't get all the references to Hollywood -- trying to substitute the isolated desert of Fontana for Hollywood is like putting a race in Albany and calling it Manhattan. It simply makes no sense.
ReplyDeleteAlso, I know I am probably part of a vast minority -- but I do not mind FOX only showing the winner of the race. Especially on tracks where the Top Ten are completely strung out.
I'm one of those fans who has been harping on NASCAR to make the races more about winning and less about points racing. Showing only the winner cross the line goes hand-in-hand with that. If I want to find out where Menard finishes, I can find out 2 minutes later when the TV shows it.
What kind of attention-deficit society do we live in where waiting two minutes to find out where a 10th place driver finished is too long?
While I am one of the few here who is not annoyed by DW, and have liked FOX coverage in the past, today's debacle made my blood boil. I've been to Fontana and trust me it's boring in person too. But they could not have done a worse job, especially at the end of the race.
ReplyDeleteI did not see anyone else mention the following: As I watched from CA with my parents in NJ on the phone, I saw the 18 come down inside the 48 on the next to last lap and pull up alongside. Next thing I know, there's a 2-car shot of Harvick pushing 48 and I can't see what Kyle is doing. Nobody says nothin' and by the time the race is over I barely catch a glimpse of him a few lengths back of JJ & Harv. WHAT HAPPENED?
I was completely stunned: I've never seen a director blow coverage of a 3-car shootout so badly.
By contrast I watched the last 30 laps of the Indy race and saw the director barely acknowledge Dario's crossing the finish line so he could go back to the great 3rd place battle between TK and Simona DiSilvestro. WTG INDY!
Anon/J said
ReplyDeleteWith that said, can't something that doesn't require artificial excitement, angles, graphics, etc, etc ever again regain the simple excitement for fans of taking a corner fast, hoping Mr. #28th place makes it up 10 places, etc, without having to look at a NASDAQ style ticker to see it?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gold Star Comment of the Week & Million $ Question nobody cares to answer!:-(
p.s. The Indy Car was fabulous, aside from the first lap crash,
Simone DeSilvestro. Google Her.
She's the real deal.
p.s.s. I totally missed DW's crude comment but am curious!
Watched Fox, listened to MRN. But at the start did anyone catch DW saying "I love to see all the fans standing and looking up at us waiting for those words."
ReplyDeleteIt's all about ME! What a self centered oaf!
I did the same thing as last week...saw a little of the race on Fox but listened to it all on the radio. Listening to MRN today reminded me of the good old days with Bob Jenkins, Benny Parsons, and Ned Jarrett or, for another sport, Pat Summerall and John Madden when they were in their prime...you know, a team that can make a less than top-notch event still be entertaining. Meanwhile, the tired booth at Fox would probably make even the last laps of the 1979 Daytona 500 seem boring.
ReplyDeleteJust as with last week, it only took a couple of segments in between the VCU game (hooray for JD!) and the UK game (hooray for me!) to see that this was another disaster as far as keeping long time fans informed and new fans interested. Video-game-style camera shots, failure to show important aspects of the race (like debris on the track), and absolutely useless yammering from DW did not make me want to stay tuned nor excite me that the track only three miles from my house is worth visiting again.
For B-Flo and Anonymous 8:40...as a two-time resident of Fontana, you are spot on with your comments about Fontana being nowhere near Hollywood in either distance or manner. Up until sometime in the 1990's, most people in SoCal referred to it as Fontucky due to its rural nature and infamy as being a haven for the Hell's Angels (which were founded here) and meth freaks. Now, with the influx of immigrants where the latest census shows that the city is now 67% Hispanic, it's known by many other names but I won't repeat those because most of them are always said with hateful derision (as a Kentucky boy, I always thought Fontucky was funny).
Don said: I didn't like it so I now follow the races on the radio. End of problem.
ReplyDelete---------------------------------
That's wonderful. If you have access to a radio station that carries MRN. Not all of us do. I would love to be able to listen to it on the radio, but I have no choice but to attempt to watch the horrid "coverage", and read this blog and twitter to find out what's really happening. The coverage shouldn't be so shabby that you have to resort to the radio broadcast.
the hollywood references made sense if you paid attention...the champ the last five years had a role in a sitcom filmed there..5o miles from the track. and jimmie johnson nearly won the race...man..get a clue and quit whining !!
ReplyDeleteAgree Osbornk :( it's a shame too.
ReplyDeleteI ended up putting things together for my crockpot since not much was happening to keep my attention.
It's a shame that the best part of the race happened the last handful of laps.
I was watching basketball and every time they had a timeout, I switched over to racing and guess what???? they were in commercial, too!
ReplyDeleteThankfully, I had the scanner on, so I knew basically what was going on.
Glad I didn't miss an exciting basketball game for a boring race with the same ole, same ole from the TV production.
Hey Gang!
ReplyDeleteFOX just announced that FX (a FOX cable network) will be carrying college football this Fall!!
David Hill gets the chance to ruin another network!!
Maybe Digger will be popping out of the sideline when a player goes out of bounds!! And hey, Artie "Ray Charles" Kempner can cut away to coaches and cheeleaders when someone is crossing the goal line!
Yippie
Terry G -- I understand your pain -- all of the local radio stations here in the Philly area have stopped carrying NASCAR races -- gee, I wonder why?? -- it's one of the reasons why I pay for trackpass - it allows me to hear the radio broadcast thru my computer as well as follow my driver via pit command.
ReplyDeleteI'll ditch my cable and keep my hi speed internet if I ever have to make a choice. As others have pointed out, the radio coverage (at least with MRN) allows me to see the race happening without any pictures. It is a better alternative to being frustrated with Fox and ESPN's coverage.
I didn't even try to listen--I put them on mute & put up the closed captioning & MRN. It was a good race on MRN. Compared to the Indy race, the TV coverage was just so poor. There is no sense of perspective of where everyone is running. Used to be you'd hear them say 'nothing's changed at the front of the field so we're going to show you a battle going on for 20th'...to be honest, I learned a lot about racing that way back in the day, especially on the mile & a halfers--watching for a few laps to see how someone worked his way around another car, picking up the right spots on the racetrack, etc. That's part of what racing is; and one of the reason I don't mind racing at these tracks. But if TV spends all its time showing the guy in front, well--then we'll never know what racing is going on. I'm guessing the ratings will be dismal because of the b-ball.
ReplyDeletegreat finish
ReplyDeletewhile not popular here i enjoy seeing the crew celebration after a amazing moment out of turn 4
great job FOX!
I never really understood the fascination with Hollywood. For one thing, they make it sound like it's down the street, when actually it's 60 miles away and over an hours drive on a good traffic day. Secondly, the vast majority of people they are enamored with don't care about NASCAR. Never have.
ReplyDeleteBut it's nothing new. They've been doing this for years. And as long as Chris Meyers is there to say all the stupid things he does tying NASCAR to Hollywood, and Jeff Hammond is there to dream he's a Hollywood star, it will continue.
Here is the thing about showing the finish line longer at the end of the race:
ReplyDeleteAt a track like Fontana, the cars are all strung out. It will take a full minute of airtime to show cars strung out 7-10 seconds apart cross the line. Sorry, but that is boring. Especially if the other choice is showing a crew celebrating or a winner doing a burnout. And then what if the first 10 are shown coming to the line and the battle for 12th is neck and neck? Yep, more complaints because you cut away after 10.
People go to races to see who wins. Not so see who finishes 9th. Sure, the 9th place finisher has fans - but so does the 27th place finisher. Not every car is entitled to equal coverage.
Do you care who comes in 6th in the All-Star race? No! That's because that race is all about going for the win. Well, fans have asked for that in points races, and now they got it.
I'd also like to say "Thank God" for Kyle Petty. The way he stood up to the other two clowns on Speed's pre-race show saying putting Kyle Busch 9th on the all-time wins list is a BS stat had me out of my chair cheering for Kyle. Generally that show is dripping with sugar. But Kyle threw a little vinegar in there which was fantastic. Way to go Kyle!
ReplyDeleteAnon 11:28AM,
ReplyDeleteLet me get this straight. It's boring to see Sprint Cup Series cars racing to the finish on the final lap and people go to races to see who wins.
Have you ever heard the term "casual fan?" Just asking.
JD
I have heard of the term "casual fan" and I think more than any other fan, a casual fan cares who wins. A casual fan is not attached to a particular car and wants to see a winner. A casual fan also definitely doesn't want to see a static shot of the finish line where a car crosses 3rd, then 12 seconds later a car crosses 4th, then 7 seconds later a car crosses 5th. I'm sorry, but this is the very definition of boring television.
ReplyDeleteIf you go to YouTube and search for "TOP NASCAR FINISHES", you'll see a whole bunch of videos put together by fans where they count down the best finishes to NASCAR races ever. These exciting finishes are what bring in casual fans and turn them into NASCAR fans. And in every one of those exciting finishes, nobody in the world cares who finished 8th.
All off-season long, all we hear is "put more emphasis on winning", but then everyone wants complete parity between the winner and the 9th place car when it comes to airtime. Makes no sense to me.
PS - if the cars were side-by-side, I would have more sympathy for the "show all Top 10" argument. Unfortunately, Fontana, Vegas and even Bristol (how sad) had cars strung out and not really "racing." If the battle for 4th is between three cars coming off turn 4 on three different racing lines, then I would be more open to the importance of showing more cars cross the line. But until NASCAR figures out how to keep the winner from checking out because of "clean air", I don't see the point in watching spaced out cars collect their points.
ReplyDeleteAnon @ 12:23 wrote
ReplyDelete"I have heard of the term "casual fan" and I think more than any other fan, a casual fan cares who wins. A casual fan is not attached to a particular car and wants to see a winner. A casual fan also definitely doesn't want to see a static shot of the finish line where a car crosses 3rd, then 12 seconds later a car crosses 4th, then 7 seconds later a car crosses 5th. I'm sorry, but this is the very definition of boring television.
Well, you have inadertantly identified exactly why NASCAR finds itself in the pickle it's in. Under Brian France, they sought the nebulus "hipper, younger, Hollywood-esque, casual " fan, and what resulted was the alienation of decades worth of loyal followers.
What you fail to understand is the the heart of this sport is and always will be with hard core fans. Fans who follow a specific driver or make of car or owner. I, for example, wanted to know how veteran Ken Schrader was faring- coming out of semi retirement to race. Other than the snail crawl at the top of screen, I got nothing.
Once the winner takes the checker, the ENTIRE FIELD has to cross start finish before a burn out......thus NO CHANCE of missing it if you document all finishers.
I happen to believe Fox's finish line style is a direct and intentional snub at this blog and its fans. Hard core, not "casual".
Anon 12:23PM,
ReplyDeleteThe entire format of NASCAR is that fans stick with their chosen driver and team.
If your driver has fought back up through the field and has a chance for a top ten finish it is fundamentally the worst TV coverage to pretend this is an NFL game and shift the focus of the telecast to the winner as if the race is over when he crosses the line.
Fans like you are what is wrong with the sport and driving it into the ground. You clearly have no favorite driver, team or organization.
Your "theory" the that NASCAR pre-season emphasis on drivers pushing for the win is somehow connected to eliminating the other lead lap cars at the finish on TV is a bit strange.
FOX has consistently been moving NASCAR toward the NFL style coverage and the results have been horrible.
NASCAR is different and the SPEED TV team on trucks has proven for years that it's not hard to produce quality racing for TV.
JD
I too heard Kyle Petty give 'ol Kenna Wallace the business when he was trying to sugar coat KB's winnings. Classic Kyle- you are alot of fun to listen to...
ReplyDeleteNow for the race: I too, wish along with some of the rest that we could get a good radio broadcast that doesn't fade out all the time. DW is just a "legend in his own mind" Too bad. I wish Fox would do the same thing the Cubs just did to Silva. Bye,Bye!!!
What? I do have a favorite driver, a favorite team, etc. But when my guy is running 11th, that's the breaks.
ReplyDeleteAnd to whoever mentioned Ken Schrader - this must be a joke. I love Kenny on TV as much as the next guy... but c'mon. He finished 33rd. Are you suggesting FOX should have shown 33rd cross the line? What a joke! NASCAR has NEVER given equal time to a guy running 33rd. EVER. To say anything else is to overly romantacize the broadcasts that made you a fan. It never happened.
robbiejr and Zieke -- thanks for letting me know what KP said on raceday (since I no longer tune in since listening to klown prince kenny irritates me beyond all measure). Kyle is right - it's a BS stat -- the win totals aren't cumulative!
ReplyDeleteAnon 12:40 and JD 12:40 -- bless you both for pointing out WTH has gone so darn wrong with the sport.
I read an article last week that said in part (a quote from Helton and Hendrick I think)that NASCAR fundamentally underestimated how much the fans would HATE the COT.
And the TV broadcasts bear blame for this exodus as well. Fans tune in to see a race -- and we got that in 2001 up until the "new" tv contract was signed - then it plain went away.
I've watched the last two races via old-fashioned VCR, taping a HotPass channel. In advance of a weekend trip, I chose Harvick! Even when buried in the field, I knew he was strong and often the fastest car on the track 20+ laps into a green-flag run. Fox can call him "where did he come from?" Harvick, but it's a misnomer. HP viewers knew, but it shouldn't come to that.
ReplyDeleteI'm glad that DirecTV gives me this option. The problem is, IT SHOULDN'T BE THE ONLY TV OPTION to follow the whole race! I don't do Twitter, etc. I heard and saw enough of the Fox box to know they did their usual single-pair-of-binoculars coverage.
Maybe Fox is trying to sell more DirecTV subscriptions. If so, Mike Joy, or Chris Myers, should just announce during the telecast, "if you want to see who's not in the top-3, just check out DirecTV HotPass. They cover four drivers. At least ONE of them HAS to be worse than third!"
Looks at the bright side. At the rate the broadcasts and ratings are currently heading, the money in the next TV contract would look very much like the IRL deal. In that case, there will be no issues with side-by-side commercials as there would be very few costs those commercials need to cover.
ReplyDelete"Fans like you are what is wrong with the sport and driving it into the ground. You clearly have no favorite driver, team or organization."
ReplyDeleteI'd like to apologize for ruining the sport for you all. Since I don't have a favorite driver, team, or organization. I guess 10+ years of watching virtually all the races has been poor judgement on my part.
I'm sure people will respond that the real race fans were the ones watching ESPN back in the 80's. Not someone that got involved within the past 20 years.
I've looked up old races on-line. And amazingly many of the same TV issues people on here complain about now, were taking place back then.
The review of each race shouldn't be called "TV Police" but "Groundhog Day." Because it is the same people complaining about the same TV issues weekly. Yet being surprised every week that the coverage doesn't change based on their whims.
Roland, we were talking about the finish line issue. Nothing more. Don't put words in my mouth.
ReplyDeletestarrcade,
ReplyDeleteYou've been watching the sport for over ten years without a favorite driver, team or organization?
As they would say at ESPN: "Come on man!"
JD
So much for being able to offer your opinion which is all I did. Since it was positive, in steps the tv police to berate someone whom does not tow the party line on this board...
ReplyDeleteAnon 11:28AM,
Let me get this straight. It's boring to see Sprint Cup Series cars racing to the finish on the final lap and people go to races to see who wins.
Have you ever heard the term "casual fan?" Just asking.
JD
Have been using a simple three window online setup for following Cup races lately.
ReplyDelete(1) Live broadcast stream with very low volume earbuds seems to keep the frustration level with whoever is broadcasting the race in check.
(2) Live timing/scoring, usually FOX RaceTrax, for full field standings in real time. Very handy.
(3) twitter homepage, following: TheDalyPlanet, a bunch of NASCAR writers, and even ole DW.
Of the three NASCAR "Network Partners", FOX is subjectively the least favorite and has been from the get go. A little too hokey, a tad over-produced. The broadcast of Sunday's Fontana race was fine in the beginning, sagged in the middle, but ended on a high note with an exciting finish. The shortening of the race down to 400 miles and the long green flag runs, made it a relatively quick 2hr:39min race, much better than the longer 500 mile distance IMO.
Nice extended post-race with lots of interviews. Overall rating: 8.
I can understand what starcade is saying. I started following NASCAR back in the 70's when my favorite drivers were the Alabama Gang. In 1978 I attended my first race at Atlanta, the fall race, and switched my allegiance from the Alabama Gang to Dale Earnhardt, although I never stopped loving the Allisons. Dale was my one and only favorite driver from 1979 to the day he died.
ReplyDeleteAfter Daytona that year, and until today, I never really put my support behind any one single driver, not even Junior. Today, I'd much rather see great racing, which is a rare thing it seems, than see a favorite driver win. I've become more of a race fan than a driver fan.
Does that make me any less of a fan than if I'd picked someone to spend my money on buying hats, t-shirts and diecast like I did all those years with Dale. I don't think so. Sure there are a few drivers I love to see win, just like there are a few I love to see lose. Just because I don't wear their stuff to the track does not mean I'm a casual fan.
You said those words, not me. Not having a favorite driver doesn't make me or anyone less of a fan. Lots of people don't have favorites, they just want to see a good race. Theres absolutely nothing wrong with that. Some people may find your comment offensive thats all. I just don't think we need to go there.
ReplyDeleteRobbie,
ReplyDeleteJust like Roland you are parsing my words.
The topic is seeing only one car, the winner, cross the finish line on TV.
It's been a topic for years as FOX has done this while SPEED has done the opposite. ESPN has wavered back and forth, depending on who was producing and directing.
You know how many Dale Junior fans I heard from? Like it or not, you are not getting the fact that TV is there to serve the fans of ALL the teams and drivers.
It's great that Havick won one of 36 races this season. What is not great is that fans of the other drivers on the lead lap were denied seeing their driver finish for absolutely no reason.
Do you think there was even ONE person at the actual race who watched the winner cross the line and then turned away as the other cars RACED to the finish?
Just like SPEED does with the trucks, the funtion of NASCAR TV coverage is to relay to the fans watching on TV what is happening at the track.
Leaving the actual live race long before it is over just because one car crossed the line and won makes no sense.
JD
BTW, overnight TV ratings down 2% from the race this weekend last year.
ReplyDeleteNo Roland, you took a sentence out of an answer on another topic and tried to twist it. Not going to get away with that here. Sorry bud.
ReplyDeleteBeen here since 2007. Some topics are fun and light, others are hard and tough to debate.
Trying to tell me that just seeing one guy win a race while missing 30+ other teams who are racing for everthing they are worth to the finish line makes no sense anyway you slice it.
The Chase and the new points format only serve to cement my argument. Racing for position on the final lap is key to success in the sport.
JD
We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. You got me riled up with that statement JD. We disagree on a lot of things but thats what makes this place so fun. The anon at 2:39 is completely wrong. We can all share our opinions here. The lack of pro-FOX comments is not due to bias, its simply due to the fact that the broadcast was bad.
ReplyDeleteBTW I was not denying that not showing everybody finish is bad.
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure the TV ratings are an accurate gauge of how many people are actually watching the race. I suspect many people are like me. The TV is on but nobody is watching unless something happens. I seldom even hear the bobble head boys even though they are on. I suspect the ratings are down a little but the actual viewers are down a lot.
ReplyDeleteJohn,as a race fan, not a "favorite driver" fan, I'm actually agreeing with you. Since I watch for the racing, I want to see as many of the cars cross the finish line as I can. Why? Because more times than not, the real racing to the checkered flag, for position, is far from the leaders. It's back in the middle of the pack, sometimes even at the back with cars trying to stay or get into that stupid Top 35 (that's a topic for another day). FOX never shows that. So as a race fan, that's inexcusable, if you ask me.
ReplyDeleteI guess to add to the wish to see where all the drivers finish is the fact that many of us fans get in pools and fantasy leagues, where the finish of many drivers matters alot both financially and for bragging rights. Maybe Fox doesn't care about that, but they need to realize that many folks wouldn't be watching at all if it weren't for the added incentives of fantasy leagues.
ReplyDeleteHey, "riled up" ain't a bad thing! Just means you care about something.
ReplyDeleteRe: finish line debate. From one hardcore perspective, if there is a battle for position coming to the line, be it for the win or whatever, it should be shown, the race is not over until all the cars cross the line.
ReplyDeleteHowever, sometimes the nature of the ending of the race may make watching a single line of cars less exciting than focusing the live action on the winner et al. Bayne's 500 win for example.
FOX has apparently decided to enhance the focus on the winner almost exclusively to the dismay of the fans of other cars in contention.
This is yet another reason that a selective multi camera online stream of NASCAR races would take care of all the varied ways different types of fans like to experience a race.
I have tried to avoid ratings issues, because I am not a big fan of what they really mean.
ReplyDeleteIf you want to understand "trending" then you can swing by Jayksi.com and look at the four year ratings info on his chart.
It's pretty much an eye-opener and why it's so frustrating to have the NASCAR shills telling fans everything is just fine.
When something is not working, you fix it. Bottom line is things are not working for FOX.
JD
RaceBuddy and some free scanners sure would have helped in Cali!
ReplyDeletewow--things got interesting this afternoon. To be honest, I am not as 'hot' on the 'showing all cars finishing' line as some of you, but I respect the opinion and I may be the minority.
ReplyDeleteWhen I became a serious fan in '97(I was 'casual' before that...), the first thing my friend said to me was 'who are you going to root for' like it was a mandate. To me, as a 'casual' fan I didn't really have much of an opinion on coverage because I couldn't possibly know what I was missing. (For example, I would watch Daytona because it was Daytona, and it took just a few races of really understanding to show me that that was NOT a form of racing I was fond of.) It certainly only took a race or two to understand tight & loose. (I noticed that on MRN they casually inserted a very quick explanation when they mentioned it, took five seconds, not a cutaway car.) And my biggest objection was the lack of 'unbiasedness' toward NASCAR.
How times have changed. I'd take Ned & Benny back even when I hated how they'd suck up to NASCAR. The old statement, 'I don't know anything about art but I know what I like' was wrong. Because if you don't know anything about art you don't even *know* what you like, and you'd probably surprise yourself by learning. I did.
Fox is just showing no willingness to change. We can keep shouting here for improvements but until they show the improvements, there is no sense trying to watch an unwatchable race.
ReplyDeleteI hear ESPN is getting a little bit better but i am waiting out the remainder of the season.
Done, I have been done a long time ago.
What about you.
Watched HotPass. Got to see JPM, Biff, JR & TS battling for 10th thru 13th at the finish. Also got to watch JR battle back up to that pack from 19th after Landon Cassill spun his tires on the restart. Pretty exciting.
ReplyDeleteDid anyone watching FOX see that?
Because FOX is on the split screen, also got to see the exciting finish for the win without listening to the booth.
I enjoy watching cars race, whoever they are. As long as we have the Chase and the top 35, every position means something to someone.
If we only care who wins then why don't we just take race winners through the first 26 races and put them in a race by themselves.
I've given up on FOX changing anything.
PS...did appreciate the extended post race interviews.
Daly Planet Editor said...
ReplyDeleteIt's pretty much an eye-opener and why it's so frustrating to have the NASCAR shills telling fans everything is just fine.
When something is not working, you fix it. Bottom line is things are not working for FOX.
JD, I believe you just hit on something that currently infects most media and big corporations of any type these days...never admit you did anything wrong...just keep spinning things in your direction and, eventually, enough people will believe it so you can survive the ire of those that speak out against your actions.
That's one of the reasons 2011 might be my last as a NASCAR fan after 40 years (I'm 45). To me, this type of "spin" from NASCAR, Fox, ESPN, and certain sportswriters who have ingested too much of the Daytona Beach Kool-Aid is bearing false witness -- something I seem to recall reading somewhere that people should not do -- and that's not exactly what I expect all of the time from a sport that outwardly promotes itself as being one that caters to those with "family values."
JMHO
You bet that if I'm at the race, I am standing there watching ALL the cars cross the finish line. Even if MY favorite wins. Heck, that's the payoff for all the time spent at the event.
ReplyDelete@Gina 5:01pm
ReplyDeleteDitto; I keep my eyes on the track until the last car finishes the cool-down lap. Then I'll see if there are potential pit-road confrontations.
There are battles everywhere, and they can happen 15 seconds (Bristol) to 50 seconds (Daytona) AFTER the checkered flag drops.
And I'll rarely tune my scanner to the winner's channel. I'd rather go to the driver who's most angry or the little guy who got his first top-10.
All the comments yesterday and today reminded me how GRATEFUL I am to have Versus because I am throwing my support to Indycar.
ReplyDeleteEven though the cars were strung out Indycar showed who crossed the finish line the best they could! Groups of cars were 23 seconds apart!! They showed the winner then went to show the fight between Simone & Kanaan.
Everybody KNOWS who danica patrick is from her over saturated propaganda image & go daddy gross commercials. There are many worthy of our support like Graham Rahal who lives in Columbus Ohio most of the time from what I gather on Twitter and Simone DeSilvestra is a classy, hard working driver, GRATEFUL for the opportunity that has been bestowed up on her.
Fox, you've ruined many sports but I am no longer watching NASCAR because of you & BSPN.
JD,
Will Mike Wells no longer be doing TNT races since he now runs Versus races? That will ruin my mid summer enjoyment of NASCAR racing since he'd show us the ENTIRE field.
I'm stunned some here think it's fine to NOT show more than the winning car over the finish line. Seeing crew shots & pit crews act like a bunch of boy scouts is not what I care to see. Thus I will No longer put out energy to a race that only hacks me off.
P.S. Oh and insert sarcasm here, Thanks NASCAR for removing all terrestrial racing on radio. I used to ENJOY listening to the race in the car or the yard but you've taken that away too. I would never, EVER dream of getting satellite radio, especially in this tough economy.
Just so we are all on the same page, it's not about being in the majority or minority on issues.
ReplyDeleteWe all have our own opinions developed from our own experiences and that is what makes these debates interesting.
anon wrote:
ReplyDeleteAnd to whoever mentioned Ken Schrader - this must be a joke. I love Kenny on TV as much as the next guy... but c'mon. He finished 33rd. Are you suggesting FOX should have shown 33rd cross the line? What a joke! NASCAR has NEVER given equal time to a guy running 33rd. EVER. To say anything else is to overly romantacize the broadcasts that made you a fan. It never happened.
Well, sonny, I wrote about Schrader, and it ain't no joke!
NASCAR tv coverage USED to show guys finishing 33rd, because we(who produced it back then) knew fans existed for every driver, and we knew that every driver who finished the entire race worked just as hard, and probably harder than the guy who won. WE showed racing on the track and changes of position WHEREVER IT HAPPENED,
That, my young, casual fan, was the key to great coverage.
I wanted to watch a race, but all I saw was commercials........
ReplyDeleteStill waiting for ACS to put in an In-N-Out at the track.
ReplyDeleteThe attitude that only the winner matters is ridiculous. There were several cars (from what I read in other articles, NOT from what I was shown on TV) that were battling right down to the wire for places. When I go to a race in person, I watch any battle anywhere on the track, favorite driver or not. If I can't get close to that same experience watching TV, it isn't worth it. Fox doesn't have a clue what makes people get involved in a race and keeps them glued to the TV. Covering a race as if it was qualifying by showin single cars or too many in car shots totally distances the audience from the action. Not the way to get and keep viewers.
ReplyDeleteinkthatpaints...I doubt that In-N-Out would ever go for it as a big part of the appeal is their reasonable prices. The last time I ever went to what I still call California Speedway, they charged me $3 for a small bottle of water that cost 89 cents at any local convenience store. With that kind of a markup, my guess is that a Double-Double -- Animal Style, of course ;-) -- with fries and a drink would run about $17-$18. =:-o
ReplyDeleteI just found out that both Red Bull cars got a top ten in Fontana.
ReplyDeleteNo wonder those peeps were sending email upset at FOX. Since I was so disgusted I turned off the TV, I had no clue.
That's amazing, Kahne and Vickers in the top ten and were not shown finishing the race on TV.
Race Finish on TV:
ReplyDeleteI have commented on this before and I stick with it, even though many of others dont agree.
Do you actually expect the director to lock down on a shot of the finish line for the remaining competitors to finish ?
If you have "invested" 2 and a half hours watching 400 miles and STILL need to see YOUR driver finish 9th or 19th or 29th, it;s time to buy a ticket and go to the race.
Yes JD, people in the stands really do GET UP and start leaving their seats when the winner crosses the finish line. Sure some stay, but its not to watch the other 42 losers, its to finish their beverage.
If MY driver has been running 15th for the final 75 laps, I have a pretty good idea that he's going to finish 14th, 15th, or 16th. I'm going to sleep just fine if I do not see him finish 18 seconds behind the leader.... he's been running there all day. HE SUCKED !!
By the way,like many, I too have a favorite car / driver. At California, MY driver led only ONE lap. It was the LAST LAP !! I saw him finish just fine !!
Just for information, the 20th placed car, Mark Martin was 7.903 seconds behind the leader.
ReplyDeleteSo if they held the camera for 8 seconds we would have seen 21 lead cars crossing the finish line.
Martin Truex Jr. finished 7.966 sec. back.
I read through all the comments each week and hardly ever post but this is one of the best i've ever read on her and it is SO TRUE...
ReplyDelete"The review of each race shouldn't be called "TV Police" but "Groundhog Day." Because it is the same people complaining about the same TV issues weekly. Yet being surprised every week that the coverage doesn't change based on their whims."
When are we going to get it? They (Nascar, Fox) don't care what we think. Just ask Brian France. Everything is fine and on the up and up.
Anon 7:47 pm -- Bravo!!
ReplyDeleteJD, congrats to the Red Bull guys -- that is great (even if I'm not a fan of Toyota or Red Bull) - that's quite an accomplishment.
I had to laugh at Mike Joy's comments after the race saying this was one of the best California races ever. Well, either he never watched last fall's race (which really was a good race) or his director never showed us much of that great racing.
ReplyDeleteKen,
ReplyDeleteThat makes no sense to me. Your driver could have spent the entire day dealing with adversity and come back to finish in the top ten.
Other drivers, like Ryan Newman who finished 5th have a very big fan base.
The assertion that somehow the race is over when the winner crosses the line is ridiculous.
The remainder of the field is not coasting to the line because they did not win. They are racing to the line at full speed for position.
To somehow say that the winner is the story of the race is even stranger. There are 36 races and each will have a winner. Meanwhile, the entire sport is based on making the Chase and then running for the championship.
If you watch the truck races on SPEED, the network shows respect to the trucks on the lead lap by allowing them to race to the line on camera.
Even ESPN last week cut quickly to the winner and then went back to catch the racing to the line.
It just amazes me that this is even an issue.
I honestly chuckled at the end of the California race.
ReplyDeleteI wanted to see how Artie and the crew handled the finish. He chose the in car "face cam" for several seconds, the shot of pit crew celebration, etc.
Chuckled because I feel FOX is doing it in this manner simply because YOU are making such a big deal out of it.
Sunday's biggest story was the incredible drive and charge by the 29 car in the closing laps. Last lap pass to win.
The Red Bull cars (of which you referred to) never even led a lap. Never a factor for 400 miles.
I rarely watch a race on TV alone, always with friends at the house or at a local pub. NEVER...repeat NEVER has any of them ever bitched about not seeing their driver cross the line ....NEVER !!!
Nobody at the pub slams his mug of draft beer on the table because he didnt see his driver finish 5th - 8th - or 21st. He/she waits for the final results or keeps an eye on the ticker.
JD - you know I'm honest and more times than not agree with you. But I respectfully disagree on this issue.
Split screens would go a long way concerning this issue. Put the winner in the small box and if any battles are coming to the finish, then show it.
At California, the 29's impressive charge in the closing laps deserved the TV time.
Ken,
ReplyDelete"Nobody at the pub slams his mug of draft beer on the table because he didnt see his driver finish 5th - 8th - or 21st. He/she waits for the final results or keeps an eye on the ticker."
Maybe I should start forwarding you my email. If you had a houseful of Ryan Newman fans or a group of Team Red Bull fans at the bar, you did not give a daggone if Harvick won this race.
What you are failing to realize because you do not have a favorite is that the vast majority of NASCAR fans are in the sport because they do!
As we have said many times, even in a horse race the TV director makes sure to show the horses crossing the line.
Instead of three minutes, fans of these drivers have been watching for three hours.
Ken, the fan base is dwindling, the TV numbers are down and the media is attacking the sport for being out of touch. To me, this is one of the key reasons why.
JD
JD, he said he did have a favorite--the 29.
ReplyDeleteI was the one talking about being in the minority (with Ken, apparently) yesterday--and yes, I also have a favorite (whose car really sucked Sunday). To be honest, in attendance, I time it so I am at the bottom of the stairs when the checkered flag waves at the end. And then I'm booking for the parking lot. My companions also all have favorite drivers, and they sometimes leave *before* it's over. I just can't plunk down $90 a ticket & do that, but many do. It's just issues of traffic & having a long drive home (and the main reason I've never been to Pocono, which I bet is better in person.)
I agree the split screen would solve it easily (provided one of them is not on 'wife cam' or something). Honestly, I really didn't care about watching my driver cross the finish line in 23rd. But yes, I understand there are those who do and I think it's probably enough to support doing it. Especially when, as Charlie pointed out, it only takes a few seconds; at least for the top 10 or 20, depending on the type of track. I guess I feel like there are *worse* sins, and this seems minor in comparison to bad camera angles and overbearing announcers. I think it does go to showing that they don't understand the fan base though. How's that for a wishy washy viewpoint, lol?
I am unable to read the ticker on my standard def tv. So when the broadcast is set to go off the air and they display the finishing order, I press pause on my remote and freeze the frame so I can see where everyone finished. This is no joke. I have to do this because the presentation of race event is so incoherent and disorganized I have no idea where anybody finished the race, let alone where they ran most of the day. When they don't even show the cars crossing the stripe with a display of even the top 10 it just adds to the confusion.
ReplyDeleteThis blog is not the problem - FOX is the problem. They are a mess!
I think we hijacked this post and it's probably my fault.
ReplyDeleteGoing to spin the finish line issue into a new stand-alone topic for comments.
JD