This time, the topic was the late debris caution at Richmond that was called out by various drivers, crew chiefs and fans as being thrown only to bunch up the field for the finish of the race. NASCAR disputes those contentions and apparently has some other issues with the topic of justifying cautions.
Here is how Jeff Gluck reported it over at SBNation:
"Sometimes, some people are a little more needy than others and they want to see that for whatever reason," NASCAR vice president of competition Robin Pemberton (pictured above) told reporters attending a function at Charlotte Motor Speedway. "And whatever their thought process and beliefs with the governing body (are), they think they need proof.
"Sometimes you see (the debris) and sometimes you don't, and that's based on TV coverage, basically."
But Pemberton said FOX "didn't do anything wrong" and he doesn't mind TV not showing the reason for debris caution because, "I don't have an issue with (the reason for the caution)."
He also said NASCAR does not keep the debris as evidence of why it called the caution. "We don't inventory it, we don't tag it and put it a library anywhere or anything," he said. "It's just trash."
"A lot of times, you call it for one thing and then you pick that up and anything else that's in the vicinity," he said.
So what was the debris at Richmond? Pemberton said there may have been a water bottle on the track, but there was also a beer can or piece of aluminum that had been run over.
The ripples from Pemberton's rock thrown into the pond did not take long to spread. This same issue has risen to the surface several times over the last couple of years. It's basically a shame that it had to be discussed at all, but it just comes down to one simple truth.
The FOX telecasts are not produced to serve the hardcore fans. They are produced to serve the network, the advertisers and the production team. FOX paid the money to telecast the races and that brings them the ability to pick and choose what to include and what to exclude.
If FOX chooses not to show viewers the debris that brought out the caution, NASCAR has nothing to say about it. As Pemberton stated sometimes you see the debris and sometimes you don't. That mostly depends on which Sprint Cup Series TV partner is televising the race.
If FOX chooses only to show the winning car cross the finish line, NASCAR has nothing to say about it. Fans of the other lead lap drivers who have been watching the telecast for hours may be frustrated, but the FOX production team can decide that it is more important to show the winner slowing down, the pit crew jumping around and the crew chief smiling than the field racing to the finish.
As Jeff Hammond detailed in a recent report, the FOX team focuses the cameras on two cars at a time under green flag conditions. Jumping between tightshots of cars instead of presenting the best racing on the track at the time is their right as the official TV network. Mixing these tightshots with in-car camera views serves to top-off the production approach to green flag racing.
The network does many things well including having the best corps of pit reporters, a flawless record of making superb pictures and sound as well as adding side-by-side commercials this season for the final scheduled hour of the races.
What they do not do well at FOX is respond to fans. Gluck wrote both last year and this year about his experience and subsequent frustrations of watching a full race on TV away from the track. He and I exchanged views on Twitter recently about that. His words serve as a popular view on the relationship between FOX and NASCAR fans.
"Those words from last year ring true today. The TV networks don't care about fan input, and that's my point then and now," tweeted Gluck. "It does need to change, but they don't care what you or I think. They're going to do what they want."
There are four more Sprint Cup Series races this season that will televised on FOX. The existing NASCAR TV contract runs through 2014. This means there will be two more full years of coverage by the current TV partners after this season.
We invite your comments on this topic. To add your opinion, just click on the comments button below. Thank you for taking the time to stop by The Daly Planet.
53 comments:
Who's that pictured there?
So I've been watching bits of old Talladega broadcasts this week in an effort to figure out just what it is FOX is doing differently now. I think I've got it. They've been going to in-car cams and zooming in on individual cars in the 35-car packs at Talladega for years...but there was a time when they'd use a little pointer graphic to show where a car was in the pack without having to zoom in on it and sacrifice the perspective on the whole pack.
The philosophy of TV coverage nowadays is often to focus on the personalities or the "stories" of the race. Their favorite way to show that they're talking about a certain driver is to zoom in until they only show his car. I think we can all agree that the pointer is a better option unless there is some problem with the car that begs the close examination of a tight shot.
As for the debris issue...NASCAR could sign up Joe Biden as their spokesperson and he'd probably make fewer gaffes than DW, Pemberton, France, and company have made recently. Better yet, they could sign me up.
SBTF,
That would be Robin Pemberton. He's mentioned a time or two in the post.
JD
I just wanted to post it here first, DW will mention how JR shaved his beard and how it helps him be more aerodynamic during the race at Talladega... We all know it will happen..
That said Matt Yockum replied to me on twitter they are trying to cover pits stops and such and don't always get the debris.. I applaud him for the reply just often think if the debris was sponsor approved it would be shown..
Yes we are needy. We want to see the race not one car, the reasons for cautions and the finish. None of these are happening. Since they don't show the finish they might as well make that up too, when everyone figures it out they can just say the scoring loops are wrong and everyone didn't see the real order.
We need more of the main stream nascar media to call out both nascar and the tv production. This, empty seats, and low ratints are the only things that will get the powers that be to listen. MC
I see two issues here. First, what Robin Pemberton said was just insulting. Nascar has no credibility regarding debris cautions. When they confiscate illegal parts like "c" posts, they put them on display. They should do the same with debris cautions. Regardless of of how many pieces are picked up, the one that caused the caution should be tagged and put on display in the Nascar trailer with the lap count on it. Nascar officials around the track have bibocs. They can pinpoint the supposed problems. If the Network didn't show it after the flag came out, the media could examine it after the race. Historically, cautions have been thrown for wads of tape and other harmless items that occaisonally blew away before the trucks could get to them. The media hopefully would police this. The second issue is the Network coverage. I feel there are just too many people involved in the broadcasts that either know little or nothing about Nascar racing or their experience is 30 years old. The Producers/Directors are going to do what they want regardless of what knowledgable people suggest. It's becoming increasingly obvious that the doggies don't like the dog food.
So us Nascar fans have been slapped in the face again. This has happened far too many times. Suffering thru a race (unless shown on Speed they get it), I've stopped buying anything Nascar/driver related, I was ripped off by Sprint when I got my new Blackberry in Aug. only to have the Nascar package YANKED starting in Feb. (and no they didn't tell me this would happen)and I can't get a new phone till my contract is up (guess they won't be seeing me back as a customer). DW (and Nascar)has just lost touch with the sport, the fans irregardless of how many followers he has. I'm still laughing at his comment about Bowyer's blown cylinder and how they disconnected it to get him back out on the track. Yeah DW that's what they did. I'm only going to be talked down to so many times before I'm gone and they can find an 18-34 to take my place HA! The demo of instant gratification with the attention span of a knat. Good luck with that.
These 'Jacques Debris' cautions have only exposed to more people that NASCAR is not a legitimate racing series, and is for entertainment value only. It's sad because NASCAR could be legitimate if they followed they allowed legitimate competition on the track, instead of "creating excitement" by throwing fake cautions for 'debris'.
Don't get me started on the "lucky dog" or "wave-around" rule. If you get lapped, you should stay lapped until you pass the leader.
The NASCAR on FOX group can produce the race however they want because they pay for it. When the checkered flag is out and they show the winner and some other cars finish, that's okay. I think we are whining to much about the sport. So you don't see what caused the debris caution. People complained about how there would be more cautions when NASCAR got sponsorship for the caution flag with Service Master and now they complain there isn't enough cautions. I can see how Robin might be a little frustrated. He's right about some people being needy. Would I love to see more of the racing on the track? Sure, but the racing for 20th isn't as great as the racing for seventh. FOX, TNT and ESPN do a great job presenting a race for those who can't be there and I thank them for the effort they put into it. I remember a readers comment in some NASCAR paper back in the day and this guy complaining about FOX doing their "Crank It Up" segments and how it was a waste and why he thought it was detracting from the race. The response from the editor was, "Dude, have you ever been to a race in person? That is the closest you will ever get to experiencing how it feels to be there at home." He was right.
I still believe FOX is holding out for a sponsor for their debris caused caution flag prerecorded video segment complete with bumpers and mentions with specially selected music clips.
Isaiah...he was wrong. I have been to dozens of races in person, and 'crank it up' doesn't even come close. Covering what's actually happening in the race instead of using in car cams or 'Digger cam' would be much more productive.
So it dowsn't matter to NASCAR that the networks paid billions of dollars to broadcast an event that is ridiculed and under-attended? And ratings drop continuously, and the networks don't care? It seems that with each passing day, another individual that walks between the raindrops, opens their mouth to reveal just how out of touch they are with reality.
The fact that Robin has had to make these comments at all, plus those he made about having 'proof' that the 99 was told he was 2nd...
says loads about the lack of credibility of NASCAR. Even when they are in the right, when they start justifying their actions by critizing 'needy' fans...how condescending do they think they can be? Acting like your fans are whiners is not going to help your sport. I may not agree with Bruton Smith much, but at least he felt he had to respond to the fans not showing up to his racetrack. Promotors know who is king. Perhaps Robin should give that a bit more thought.
If Travis Kvapil or David Ragan spun out running 15th, we may never actually see it. However, if the 55 or the 15 spun out running 43rd., NASCAR would throw a caution, the networks would interview everyone within a 5 mile radius of the track, including the hot dog vendor, to get their take on how the MWR cars were about to lap the field, and we would go to commercial. An Aarons commercial. With Mikey.
'criticizing'...argh.
Isaiah at 9:06,
I would love to see the racing on the track, too. It's a RACE, the network should show the RACING.
Racing for any position is interesting to me. I like to see all the drivers' racing styles, but FOX and ESPN have made that impossible. How is one supposed to become a fan of a driver when one cannot tell how he or she drives?
Kristine (a stupid AND needy race fan)
Isn't a stoppage for debris almost like a stoppage for a penalty in football? The viewers don't always see that hold or unsportsmanlike conduct because the camera is with the ball but the TV always goes back a replays the call. And a poster said a put reporter said the TV is covering pits tops; that's cool we want to see those but why can't we on that break to commercial (hey we know that's coming!) show a replay of them picking up the piece(s) of debris? And in regards to watching cars cross the finish line and only seeing the winner and wanting to watch the crew in jubilation, whatever happened to the double screen? Cars crossing the finish line on the left, crew and crew chief celebration on the right. There are lots of options out there, but if the network and NASCAR don't want to change... We are left with what we got and there isn't s whole lot we can do about it.
Every time I've listened to Robin Pemberton I get the impression he doesn't even believe what he's saying. Jim Hunter may he rest in peace was certainly the voice of Nascar made explanations such as whats happening now believable but with appropriate language.
I don't believe a word that comes from Pembertons mouth.
Ron said...
I still believe FOX is holding out for a sponsor for their debris caused caution flag prerecorded video segment complete with bumpers and mentions with specially selected music clips.
Actually the radio broadcast already does this, with the cautions being "ServiceMaster Clean" sponsored. Not to mention that every pit-stop description includes mentions of "Goodyear Eagles" and "Sunoco" fuel.
We were at the Richmond race, but left early because it was horribly cold and we were soaked to the bone. Didn't feel we missed anything because the past few years, the racing just hasn't been as exciting as it once was. Picked it up on TV and realized we'd made the right call. Wish we'd spent less money to see the Nationwide race, in fact.
We are considering, seriously, not renewing our season tickets. I can't believe it myself.
The race coverage on TV was boring but what else is new? Oh, and talk about feeling ripped off! Our Sprint Fanview is now a paperweight. We had no idea it no longer works because Nasczar has a new contract with Fanvision, another $300 investment.
Hammond trying his best to make excuses for the poor coverage so he can kiss and make up with the FOX Execs and get his old job back.
Debris or not debris?
That is the question!
You mention Jeff Hammond's recent report. Did you mean Jeff Gluck?
It's just TERRIBLE! Arrogance. Killing our sport coverage is killing our sport. I cannot watch Fox coverage of the races. TERRIBLE!
From Twitter:
Darrell Waltrip @AllWaltrip
so far I've been ask not to say "there's going to be a lot of action, 2 car tango, tandem, dancing partner, co-opetition and the "big one" !
Well, that's a start
Isaiah--You sound like the spokesman for Fox or NASCAR. I've been to the race in person and "Crank it up" is nothing like being there. The telecast on Fox is nothing like being there unless you go there and watch the entire race through a telescope.
And THAT reasoning is why I dislike FOX and the NASCAR decision to give away all broadcast rights in a massive contract money-grab. They held no influence over the broadcast of their own product... and FOX (as it does with every sport event it covers) is concerned with only two things. FOX. And REVENUE.
I'd been a race fan since the mid80's, every year going to 2 races or so all over...and watching intently each broadcast (meaning I was watching most of the commercials). But NASCAR's increasing lack of care for the broadcast product and lack of response to fan reaction has finally driven me away. I felt guilty for a while..because I SO wanted to love the spot like I used to. And finally..within the last 2-3 years, I gave up. I don't even feel the interest now. I might watch a few minutes at best...but they have done exactly what they apparently wanted (or were to arrogant to figure out). NASCAR drove me away in a trade for immediate TV $$. They've proven they don't want me at the track or watching the broadcast. They gave away all rights and don't seem to care. I read these blogs & posts and see DW's attitude on Twitter...only to see if anyone is 'getting' or even cares what has been done. What a broken business model this has proven to be. And NASCAR & FOX in particular have caused it.
There is zero downside to showing the actual debris. Either it will prove to the fans that there was an obstacle, or it will highlight that Nascar wants to pack things up or avoid a fuel run. What's wrong with the truth?
I agree with someone that posted a few months ago about the new t.v. contract coming up: It should never be negotiated over a ten or twelve year period. The contracts should be written up on a 3 year period. The old days are just that: the old days. In the 21st century, wuth the social media changes being what they are, t.v. could very well go the way of the cassette player, unless they make it a "must see" media. Ooops, did I inadvertantly give away NBC's catch phrase? Probably, because since they broke ground in their new facilities close to Bristol, CT., they are shooting across the bow of one of the other players in this upcoming contract...I look for NBC Sports Universal to be a BIG player in the NASCAR talks.FOX can relegate themselves to being a second rate Cartoon Network, and ESPN, could have talking heads all day long analyzing a player's simple sprained thumb over a 5 hour period...
I am happy the Daly Planet is around, lets us vent and there are alot of us disgusted that FOX isn't listening...they got their money, they don't care. Sad world we live in today..nothing makes sense anymore.
The problem is that the fans no longer see NASCAR as a legitimate sport due to their own missteps and foolish decision making and secrecy. Their absolute lack of any type of credibility with the fans is what creates the fans reactions and loss of interest.
On top of that we now have Dw, mikey, pemberton, Helton, actually talking down to and insulting the fans. What is blatantly obvious is that with all NASCAR's corporate greed they've forgotten who really makes the show a show. The fans made NASCAR and that's the bottom line. None of the teams, drivers, sponsors would be here without the fans. If the fans aren't putting butts in the seats or in front of the TV, then there ain't no damn show. Want to bet that all those I mentioned above would not be quite so flip if Big Bill or Bill Jr was still in the big chair? They knew where their bread was buttered. Now we have a CEO that doesn't bother even coming to the track. I think there might be a rude awakening with the new TV contracts. TV isn't going to bring in the wheel barrow full of cash they did for this contract because they see the falling ratings and the sponsors have already seen the empty seats.
Two more years until a change. Two more seasons of watching Nascar like we are now. How many fans will be left in 2 years?
To show Nascar the power of Fans, I wish after that jet-dryer caught fire and was put out by using Tide detergent, that Tide would have stepped up and sponsored a car the next race. A Tide car. I bet the sells of Tide would have gone through the roof and Tide would have made a bunch of money. From who - The Nascar Fan.
J.D.,
I know it's an old song with me, but I still gotta sing it again. There's got to be a very simple explanation as to why the Fox racecasts stink and don't please us.
That reason is: they're still getting the numbers on Monday morning when the overnights (ratings) come out.
It's like Deep Throat said in All the President's Men:
"Follow the money."
You and my fellow Planeteers can complain, write emails, mute the Fox audio and listen to MRN or PRN, pay NASCAR for the scanner audio, record them on our DVRs to skip through the commercials, boycott the racecasts, but nothing will make them change until the advertisers start calling the sales staff to say they're taking their money off the table.
Unless that happens, that fella Sisyphus will push his boulder over the top of the hill before we get what we want.
WCK
J.D.,
One more point: does it sound like Pemberton thinks about the fans the same way he does when he's been careless following behind someone who doesn't curb their dog?
Seems like we're something distasteful he has to scrape off the bottom of his shoes.
WCK
Well, I've never heard pembrton or any of the nascar people say anythint that's NOT insulting to the fans. This sort of comment is typical and simply reflects their actual attitude toward the fans in general. The weather is supposed to be nice in NJ on Sunday. Good reason to do something besides being annoyed by NASCAR & Fox. The last 5 laps are all that matter at the crapshoots anyway
Kenny, are they really getting the numbers, tho? ratings are stll marginal based on previous years
After an absence of 50 years MLB affiliated minor league ball has returned to my area. We have a team that is part of the Cincinatti Reds organization and a really nice new stadium.
Last evening I attended a double header and as I am taking a pass on going to Talledega I intend to go to a game tonight and tomorrow night.
General admission is $5.00, but I paid a bit more to get into Jimmy Buffets Margaritaville Restaurant/Bar which has a fine deck area. All told I think for the folks on my tab for the evening I spent about $100.00 including parking, admission, food, drinks and gegaws.
I thoroughly enjoyed myself and absolutely no one acted like they were doing me a huge favor by taking my money.
That is all :)
Nothing smarter than criticizing and talking down to your fanbase when you have dropping ratings and attendance. Is NASCAR losing their minds thinking comments like these are going to help them gain fans?
And its amazing how hard it is to apparently fit in a 2-3 second clip into the coverage showing debris on the track.
People how are ratings down????? Nascar is the highest rated program of the weekend every weekend. 18-30 demo its the #1 watched show Yes I agree the broadcast do suck, and could be a lot better and yes attendance is down as it is in every sports. But reading everyones comments you would think Nascar was being beat in the ratings by everything under the sun and its not. Compaired to past years yes ratings are down but it must be down everywhere else cause NASCAR IS still the MOST WATCHED program on tv every weekend. The Mlb, NBA, NHL would die to be such but its not. Go look up Nascar ratings on google you will see while down somewhat from past years its not as bad as you all put it. The NBA playoffs cant even beat Nascar
only four more races on fox? THANK GOD
When Cup raced at Texas on April 14, they won the time slot for the evening against what ABC, NBC and CBS had to offer.
The programming big shots were certainly smiling about that.
Fox and NASCAR are not the least bit concerned about the general trend of lower ratings and lower race attendance over the last few years. Like that great band Spinal Tap, they aren't losing fans. They're just appealing to a more discriminating audience.
Tom...if big shots are smiling about beating yet another Titanic miniseries, a bunch of reruns of 'elderly shows' (CSI NY & Miami, L&O SVU) and some news/documentary shows on the lowest rated night of the week, they aren't being very realistic and should probably find a better line of work.
Jonathan,
Slide on over to Jayski.com and click on the TV/Media page. Then click on the TV Ratings link.
He has a very nice chart comparing the past couple of years. That should help you understand how ratings can be manipulated by comparing whatever makes the current rating sound better.
Better than last year, better than the network sports, better than the primetime line-up, etc...
Ratings are best reviewed comparing the past performance of the same product in the same timeslot. That is where the Jayksi chart comes in very handy.
JD
@Gina,
Regardless of what the numbers might look like to us, they have to be satisfactory otherwise Fox would start losing sponsors. As it is, it seems as if the commercial load gets bigger each year so I guess it's a seller's market.
Until it starts to hurt, Fox (and the other TV partners) will continue with business as usual.
WCK
I played & now watch a wide variety of sports. I have suffered through excruciatingly horrible broadcasts & been riveted by stellar, professional presentations. I have thrown more than one piece of footwear at my television in frustration over the turn of events in a competition and have just as easily reveled in the success of one of "my" teams.
But until now, I have never been told by an executive in one of my sports that I am "needy" because I want to see physical evidence of why the action of the sport has been interrupted by the officials.
All the sports I follow -- NHL, MLS & EPL, MLB, NFL, rugby -- make an effort to show what happened on a play that led to a penalty, a card, a flag, or a missed call. All except NASCAR make certain that the credibility of the sport is maintained in the fan's mind, even if/when an official completely misses a call.
In addition, with the notable exception of NASCAR, I have ever been told by a commentator or a competitor what it is I want to see in a sport. To state that NASCAR fans, as a group, only want to see wrecks is insulting & appalling. Such statements solidify the perception of fans that some men involved in the sport are simply too far removed from the fan experience to be commenting about what we want or don't want in our sport.
To compare it to the NHL, it would be as if Wayne Gretzky -- the Jimmie Johnson of the NHL -- or (God help me for this!) Jeremy Roenick -- aka Darrel Waltrip -- stated unequivocally that fans watch NHL for the fights. Yes, that's been said since the sport started & yes, there are fans who do feel that way. But I believe most NHL fans watch for the totality of the game, not just those few moments.
My other sports have never been so publicly dismissive of the people who actually pay the bills. I am disgusted that some in NASCAR have chosen this route.
To paraphrase Big Bill: NASCAR, you need me more than I need you.
There is just a huge disconnect right now between the fan base and a few of the tv personalities. Also a disconnect between the fan base and the sanctioning body. The active fan base (those using twitter, laptops, racebuddy, tv, radio, speed channel for qualifying and practice) and the long time fans are the ones who are most upset. In my opinion, the casual fan probably doesn't care that much about the late race caution stuff. But the long time fans of the sport are just irritated with the direction of the sport in general and the attitudes of of a few of the tv personalities towards our opinions. I realize the tv networks don't care what the fans or viewers think and that is sad. It can't be a good thing in the long run.
I have never felt more disconnected from the sport than I do right now - the last 2-3 years actually. It's the TV telecasts causing it, not the sport.
I attended Daytona in February like I do every year (travelling form Ohio) and it was a good race to see in person. Nascar and the track president of Daytona did a great job dealing with all that occurred weather wise and during the race (the fire). I was a happy Nascar fan when I left Daytona. My happiness had nothing to do with anything Fox, DW or ESPN did for me. I was happy because of what I experienced at the track. That's the truth of it. I would encourage anyone who has never been to a Nascar race to go to a race and see the sport unfiltered! It's great.
I am looking forward to Daytona again this February, where I can sit high in the Sprint Tower and watch a couple races during speedweeks without DW, Fox and ESPN in my way!
Hi, Kenny, you may be correct, but I thought that I had read somewhere that Fox and the rest are all losing $ on the race broadcasts. As you point out the commercial load just keeps getting bigger and I wonder if that isn't because Fox is not able to sell the spots for the amount of money they used to so they are having to sell more spots instead, thereby the telecast is interrupted more often.
Jonathan, as JD pointed out, I look at Jayski's page for the ratings comparison rather than relying on someone else's manipulation of the information.
I work for a firm that has quite a few men in your age category - none of them watch NASCAR or show any interest in it at all.
I've decided to watch tomorrow's pre-race show on FOX to see if DW will apologize for his comments about the fans and the Fan Council, or if he'll try to spin it. We'll see.
If all the nascar fans are dying off, listening to DW should be listed as the cause of death.
The product is terrible so it is difficult to blamde it all on Fax, although they are a perfect fit for a dying "sport". The Waltrip huksters on the other hand, are simply pitiful in every way.
I recently watched a 112 minute YouTube video of Danica's Gatorade duel race. It was only roof cam view and only her in car audio. It was absolutely riveting and I'm not even a big Danica fan. Something about it was pure and made me realize just how difficult the sport is. Def worth checking out
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